Success

[mrsbrown]

I've been thinking about success a lot recently - mostly wondering if the picture in my head of a successful engineer can be achieved with my body and brain.

The engineers, above me in the hierarchy, who are good at their jobs and do stuff that involves leadership, work more hours than I do. They have a commitment to the job that I can't seem to maintain outside of the 8.30-5.30 working hours I keep. Intellectually, I would like to be more successful - get paid more, tell other people what to do, make decisions about the way the work should be done. But emotionally, I get out of bed too late to get to work by 8am and get a severe case of the "I don't cares" at about 4pm and force myself to stay until 5 or 5.30pm on a good day.

Tonight, for instance, I left at 4.30. I justified it by packing a reasonable amount of work into my handbag and promising myself I would do it this evening. Here I am...

When I was at uni, the only activities at which I would completely immerse myself, when I didn't stop because I was hungry or tired, were programming, problem solving computers and maths tasks. In more recent years, I have felt that way when writing a database and web surfing. Am I too old/ too responsible to my family to develop the sort of passion the other engineers at work seem to have? Is this because I'm a girl? or just pathetic? A straw poll of the room revealed, "you don't get gung-ho about anything"

The other area of my life where I would like to adopt some passion is becoming a Laurel, mostly because my friends are. Not in the, "they have one, I want one too" but more in the, "My friend's seem to be the sort of people who have Laurel's, I'm like them but I don't. What is it about me that is stopping me from having one too?"
[that must be close to the bone- I just started weeping]

One of my favourite book characters has a great quote - I read it again this evening:

"When you desire a consequence you had damned well better take the action that will create it"

- Cordelia Vorkosigan, Memory by Lois McMaster Bujold

That's great, I identify strongly with it, I vow to myself that that's what I would like to do - how do I make myself take the action? Also, is my family a valid excuse for my behaviour? Are they just a crutch, to justify my mediocrity?


Edit: is this just a figment of my imagination (my lack of passion/gung-ho) and, in fact, I'm just suffering from low self-esteem.

Comments

[sjkasabi.livejournal.com]

Urgh. Bess used to call it "feeling fat and ugly and not a laurel". No fun.

[damned-colonial.livejournal.com]

Completely flippant reply because I haven't woken up yet and don't have any intelligent thoughts before I've caffeinated:

"Day eight. Still not Laurel."

[splodgenoodles.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I don't know what your work standards are like compared with those of others.

I do know you always seem tired these days. Like everything's an effort and nothing is actually enjoyable. It really worries me.

But what's all this bullshit about whether or not you have a "valid" excuse for your behaviour? Who's judging you and what are you going to achieve just trying to force yourself to do more, if you decide your reason is not valid?

Oh, reality check: your laurel friends don't have kids. Keep that in mind.

Maybe you're expecting so much of yourself that you're getting overwhelmed. Just a thought.

[mrsbrown.livejournal.com]

Oh, reality check: your laurel friends don't have kids. Keep that in mind.

That's the excuse/reason I'm talking about. How many years should I keep it in mind for?

I think you're right about the overwhelmed bit.

[splodgenoodles.livejournal.com]

It's a pretty fucking good reason. Probably until the youngest turns 25.

[splodgenoodles.livejournal.com]

It also occurs to me that people who are laurelled are usually passionate about what they're doing first. The laurelling is merely a reflection of that.

A journey, not a destination.

Huge long answer covering several different points...

[hometime.livejournal.com]

On the engineering/work front, I feel bad because I opted out of the highly competitive uni/research system. On one hand, I was unable to pack up & move to wherever there was a job that could advance my career. I also was unwilling to spend the extra hours per week that many researchers or uni academics were doing to get ahead. And there is no way that I have enough killer instinct for some of those workplaces! I just wasn't passionate enough about getting ahead to want to do those things. But I did find other work that I really loved instead (now I just have to find more work!). But I know that my PhD supervisor is disappointed that I didn't go off and do a fancy post-doc in America and stuff like that.

And it is hard to measure my own worth when I'm not working much at the moment. Feeling a bit of failure in that regard at the moment....

(Side note: And one of the things that I find really disturbing is all these people who spend insane amounts of time at work and don't have any other life. Is that healthy? Physically or mentally?)

Actually, (and this is meant in an entirely good way) I see you as being in the same position as I was a few years ago. Good at doing quite a few things, but spreading my effort over a wide range of fields, and not doing any one single thing to the standard required of a laurel. The big change happened when I found things that I was passionate about. And once I discovered what those things were, it was easy to put in the work and do the research, because I was really enjoying doing it. There is no way that I could have become a laurel in a field that I wasn't passionate about.

I (me speaking personally and not in any official capacity) know that you have the brains and the skills to potentially become a laurel in the future. Yes, you do currently have less spare time for working on SCA stuff. But when the time and the right topic comes your way, you'll be amazed at what you can do.

P.s. is it worth having a full medical check-up since you have been so tired lately?

Re: Huge long answer covering several different points...

[mrsbrown.livejournal.com]

P.s. is it worth having a full medical check-up since you have been so tired lately?

done that - my iron and thyroid are fine, I'm feeling somewhat better this week and I have needed afternoon naps since forever. I mentioned my tiredness to my ex-mother-out-of-law recently and she shrugged her shoulders and observed that I have always been tired, maybe it's just something about me and I should just work within it.

Certainly, this afternoon-don't-give-a-fuck thing is something I have always done. I just don't want to do it anymore!!!

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

Spend a day thinking about what is the most important thing you'd like to change about the world (or 'our world' or 'your world', if you like)

Spend the next day thinking about how you can apply your skills to changing that. It doesn't matter if it takes years.

Do it.

Congratulations. You'll then have a "laurel" (or, as I would say in silly moments, "a porpoise").

I'm hearing you and here comes the long rant....

[nobble.livejournal.com]

You know what mrsbrown, you've just described my life (apart from the kids) for the last 3 years.

If there is one piece of advice I can offer right this minute is, do what you love because you love and be true to yourself in doing it. Dont worry about anyone else's opinion (OK within reason if it becomes job threatening or something).

Re the job, dont worry what anyone else thinks. If you have to do what you are doing to be there for your kids and your husband, that is what you have to do and in the meantime reassess and work out what you want to do. Yes I have had to take my own advice in that area. Believe it or not, deciding to work standard hours was really hard for me, but I had to, because I was not getting anything at all out of the work experience except for the paycheck at the end of the fortnight. The money wasn't enough to do the extra hours.

I have been the work-a-holic no life lawyer working 12 - 16 hour days and weekends with a partner who was a try to impress a completely sh**house employer by working extra hours for no money. Guess what. I took a $20K pay cut to get a life and be able to spend time with him and then he moved to Melbourne for 12 months to get the experience he couldn't get here. It was hard, but believe me it was worth it.

We are about 30% better off financially for doing it and we work more comparable hours, we now live in the same city and are much happier together and individually. That doesn't mean to say that there aren't things that couldn't be better. I actually dont like what I do. NKJ wants to go to uni to study law (go figure!).

In my opinion for what it's worth, children aren't a crutch or an excuse. You have certain priorities in your life and they are one of the primaries when it comes to tasking. You cannot get the extra time you spend at work back. If it comes to doing the job 9 - 5 and being there for your kids when they need you, or participating in presentism and socialising and greasing the right palms, I know which one I would choose. You cannot retrieve the moments you do not share with the people you love. That's not to say that you cant find a happy balance. I know a couple of people who do work from home 1 per fortnight or commit to 1 extra long day per week to ensure that socially and from a professional network perspective they dont miss out. That's important too. It's finding the balance.

You're not ancient, there's time to do everything and change career and direction if you want to either when your kids are substantially through school and having lives themselves or at any time really. Again it comes down to balance. But they aren't a crutch - they are a responsibility, a commitment and a joy (most of the time, aren't they?!).

Tell me if I'm just blowing smoke. Call me if you want to talk.

Up to a point, Lord Cobber

[erudito.livejournal.com]

One of my favourite book characters has a great quote - I read it again this evening:

"When you desire a consequence you had damned well better take the action that will create it"
- Cordelia Vorkosigan, Memory by Lois McMaster Bujold

There is a line from the Draka books by S M Stirling from a fictional philosopher: 'if you will the ends, you will the meanss'. Stirling delineates a society actually based on that principle.

You don't want to live there.

Cordelia doesn't actually mean it either, as she has all sorts of scruples. The question is not 'do I want x?' but 'do I want x including what I will have to do to get it?'. In many way, our means are more morally important than our ends, because our means are what we actually do; our ends may well not be achieved. You have to look at the complete package of end <>and</> what it takes to get there.

So, the problem is either,

(1) you don't want it if you include what it takes, and it is actually an excuse for self-flagellation,

(2) you do but certain whispering traitors of the mind are using the effort as an excuse for self-sabotage, or

(3) you do but haven't fully worked out how much compared to other things you also want and so cannot act effectively until you do.

Which doesn't actually answer your concern, but hopefully helps you to think about it.

Re: Up to a point, Lord Cobber

[sjkasabi.livejournal.com]

Cordelia does mean it, she has a value system and a cultural background which combine to mean she doesn't really want anything she's not prepared to do the necessary things to achieve. Or, embrace the means to do anything she wants to achieve. The second half of Sbard of Honour and Barrayar are basically about her working that out about herself. The Cordelia at the start of Shards would be horrified by the Cordelia of Memory who blythely says "we lie, my dear" (or words to that effect). The Cordelia who accepts the responsibility of bringing up Gregor and Miles on Barrayar at the end of Barrayar isn't yet able to be blythe about the means she forsees will have to be employed, or their likely personal and societal consequences.

Which is sort of a sideways way of me saying to mrsbrown that the kids really do make a difference to what you can do in your life, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Also a forwards way of my tipsily arguing about favourite books of course.

Re: Up to a point, Lord Cobber

[erudito.livejournal.com]

I suppose the original statement could be read as saying:

either (1) your desire commits you do the necessary actions to achieve it
or (2) if you aren't prepared to take the actions necessary, you don't really desire it, so move on.

But it can also be read as saying
(1) if you desire it, you are therefore committed to any action necessary to achieve it.

Which makes the question of means subordinate to the question of ends.

Now, Cordelia has gone past absolute means-scruples to weighing up actions and consequences in a more complete way, but she hasn't embraced Leninist ethics. She doesn't believe that the only moral issue is your purpose and all the rest is pragmatics.

I guess the statement does express having moved on from absolute means-scruples, but I still maintain she doesn't really mean what is a plausible reading of the statement.

Yes

[erudito.livejournal.com]

the kids really do make a difference to what you can do in your life, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Quite.

I think Cordelia is cited somewhere as holding that people trump principles. Indeed.

[tenbears.livejournal.com]

Actually I have always considered you to be a huge success.

You have a cool job that you mostly enjoy.
You a have an on going relationship with no major-point-and-laugh flaws.
You have great kids.
You have the most wonderfully welcoming and open personality.
You do stuff and finish more of it than me.
You are brutally honest but everyone likes you anyway, because you are also genuinely kind.
You can lead people and they follow.
You have a fabulous laugh and great eyes.

I admire you greatly.

[hometime.livejournal.com]

And that is the best answer yet.

[sjkasabi.livejournal.com]

Yeah. What they said.

[splodgenoodles.livejournal.com]

Without you, the rest of us would just be disparate, unconnected individuals floating aimlessly in an anomic universe.

Y'oughta get a laurel for personality.

So there.